Methinks the link you're referencing is different than the one listed above. I'm just shaking my head at the thought of such a badge. Oi.

One, that is exactly why it was strictly opt in only.
Two, there is a clarification here that probably needs reading http://theferrett.livejournal.com/1088382.html
Three, it wasn't solely women. (Though button placement for the guys was problematic.)

Well, the problem is anybody who doesn't opt in is still objectified because they are studied to see if they will, and if they have no button, they are scrutinized more closely in search of it. And while there may have been male participants, groping a man's chest does not carry the same connotations as groping a woman's breasts. But that last doesn't matter. I'm not impressed if men were equally objectified.

What I really don't like more than anything is that it creates an atmosphere where anyone who doesn't know or isn't comfortable in the scene is subject to an objectifying gaze and while s/he may leave, the damage is done. Plus by not participating, s/he will be marginalized from a community that was supposed to be welcoming and inclusive--which is what make cons special to me.

Er, it wasn't the guys' chests that were being grabbed. I'm heading out the door, but I do want to mention that participation was on the order of 4%, so marginalization for non-participation is a moot point.

I disagree though. I don't think percent participation matters. The fact of the various badges, the fact of it going on even in limited groups in a room, puts the non-participants in a pressured situation. I also wonder also if some who did participate felt like they had to (no matter what badge they wore)--on a peer pressure level. It didn't have to be intentional by the organizers. Merely the atmosphere would do that.

But we may have to agree to disagree.

Di

You know, I think you are right about that. Not a particularly fruitful argument. Gah, I'm feeling old now. Just read Little Brother, and now I'm backing off from an internet disagreement without either running it into the ground until both sides are sick of each other or coming to an accord somewhere. Add that to the fact that I'm getting tired by midnight most nights... goo.

Four: the button only gave the right to ask, not the right to fondle.

Still, see my answer above. I still think it creates an atmosphere that makes non-participants uncomfortable, or creates a pressure to participate against the will and undermines the joy of the con for those people who aren't interested or aren't willing. Plus if you do stay and aren't interested, you have to watch groping or leave, and that brings me back to the above comment.

I can see where watching would be uncomfortable for many people. It's not the sort of thing that should have been done in the hallways even if it was only 30-40 buttons out of 1000 con attendees. There are enough jerks in the world that once they know the buttons exist, ALL the women would have been ogled (at the least) to see if they were wearing one.

And apparently men too. And think about people who've suffered from rape or attacks or abuse in their lives--how uncomfortable that atmosphere might be. If it isn't something they could talk about or wanted known, then any reaction that seemed "over-the-top" would have been possibly dismissed or made fun of for being frigid or uptight . . .

Apparently a lot of people said yes. And not in the 'Sure, you can lay hands on my boobs just as I soon as I pull your arms out of your sockets' kind of way either.

I'm kinda glad I'm going to WISCON. It doesn't seem the sort of place where that would happen.

Nope. It doesn't. In fact, doesn't at most cons. Thank goodness. I don't think I'd return to a con that had such behavior. I wouldn't participate, but I would be uncomfortable knowing I could stumble on it, or that people might have been examining me for signs of a badge. Plus it reminds me of that trend among teenagers where girls where colored bracelets to say how far they are willing to go sexually. Ick.

It would make me uncomfortable. I also think that, probably pretty soon, some guy is going to use the 'OSBP' as an excuse for bothering every woman at a convention.

I asked my boobs about this, and frankly, they are old, cranky, fiberous with cysts, and I have fibromyalgia. They didnt think this was a good idea at all. Their reponse was "touch me and you die".

Have you ever read Nina Kiriki Hoffman's Savage Breasts? If not, you absolutely must. Now that's a pair of breasts to have. Fuuuuuunny!

I have most of Nina's stories, but where did that one appear at?

I just had my mammogram, and because of technical difficulties, I ended up with my left boob being covered in bruises. I dont want anyone touching the girls.

I have Savage Breasts in a collection: Smart Dragons, Foolish Elves, is the title I believe. She told me about it at Orycon one year and then i had to find it and turned out I had it in the book. I thought it was excellent fun.

Ick on mammograms. I need to get my first one. But first, I want to sort out all the other crap going on in my health life. Or at least start to get a handle on it.

I dont seem to have that anthology. drat.

You should get the mammogram, I made a promise to a good friend and to my stepmom who both had breast cancer.

I read that earlier... yeah, kind of creepy. At least they have buttons? And he did go on to say that after the initial group, they wouldn't approach anyone without a button. (There was a 'clarifying' post which I also read with train-wreck horror.)

Having had mine lopped off, they already feel 'not my own' enough... I can't imagine how alienated the poor remainders would feel if I let every Dick, Dick and Harry cop-a-feel.

But did you see what Ilona posted? I think she makes a good point that this could really change the perception of Penguin-Con. What right do they have? Beyond the whole groping thing... b/c as disgusting as I think it is, it ranks there with porn. It's not against the law and they are asking permission, but if it had a chance in hell to be outlawed, I'd be there to help sign the ballot.
http://community.livejournal.com/fangs_fur_fey/361866.html

(Forgive the icon... I could not help myself.)

Edited at 2008-04-22 06:52 pm (UTC)

What really kills me is that he thought men having their man-titty and butts groped would be equivilant. I mean, watch sports on TV. Most of those guys have no problems with a friendly butt slap. And men walk around shirtless... it's not comparable.

Don't know why that decided to pop into my little brain, but it did.

I am so flipped out over this that I can't figure out an adequate response. On the one hand, part of me thinks--"Well, maybe demystifying all of this would be good" like the differences between the US and Europe w/respect to drinking. The other part is screaming, "OMGWTFBBQ NO F'IN WAY WILL SOME STRANGER GET A CHANCE TO GROPE ME EVER AGAIN!!!" Whether or not it's optional, I have been through hell with sex and sexual issues and seeing a hall full of people groping each other would be like PTSD made flesh. Agh.

No, no, honey, what we need to do is if we find out there's buttons being worn at any con you and I are at, we run right out and get ourselves little buttons in the same size, same font, but maybe blue... that say something like, "Yes, you may fuck off and die." Or, "How good are you at groping with ten broken fingers?"

A part of my mind gets the genuine intentions of such an interaction, but at the same time I don't believe it's appropriate for a conference. And it's too easily abused, too easily misunderstood, too easily taken wrong, too easily a flashpoint. It's also that people will ogle you while determining whether or not they can ask you a question. And not even study your expression or your face or listen to your voice, but ogle your chest. THESE DO NOT TALK, MORON. And, EYES ARE UP HERE, JERKWAD. That sort of thing.

I had enough of guys staring at my chest in high school and college (and I wasn't even that well-endowed) -- hell, what woman hasn't gotten that treatment? If it's not the guy thinking, "wow, those are big bazoombas!" then it's a guy going, "wow, she's got no breasts at all," which isn't any more fun than the former reaction. I sure as hell don't have any interest in being reduced to 15 years old again, and especially so in a professional environment.

Or maybe I'd just be asking in return, "are you an author? what have you written? really? okay, thanks, I'll be making a point to NEVER spend a PENNY on YOUR stuff."

A'course, you just know that somewhere along the line, someone is going to respond badly to such seeming 'rejection', and retort that what I've got, what you've got, what Dissenting Boob-Person has, isn't worth groping anyway. "It's not like anyone would want to touch your boobs, so obviously you're just a sore loser." Gee, thanks for clarifying that being groped is some kind of winning.

Ehehehe, though, that reminds me of being 18 and dating a lobbyist in DC who was -- never knew for sure, but rough math had me guessing he was maybe late 30s, possibly early 40s. He was a decent enough guy except that he was, well, not my type, had next to nothing in common with me, and clearly wanted a trophy 'rebellious punk in short skirt' to cling to his arm. Or whatever. (He even lived at the Watergate; can you get any more lobbyist-like than that?) Off-again, on-again, we'd sort of date but I never had much fun because he was so busy trying to play it cool and at the same time fawning on me, while I didn't want to be outright mean but he did nothing for me. Last date I had with him, he insisted on driving me all the way home (and my parents were well out of the city, by a half-hour or so). It'd taken me almost a year of knowing him, dating once or twice a month -- and managing to even avoid kissing him, after all that time, despite his sometimes attempts, his 'intense' looks, not-so-subtle hints, etc -- and I finally figured it was enough.

"Look," I said, trying to be polite, and friendly, and kind. "Sometimes I feel like you want more from this friendship [play the oblivious card!!], but that's just not in me. That's not how I feel for you. I'd really this just remain a good friendship."

He was silent, then he said, "what, you think I wanted more? Have you looked in a mirror recently?" I was utterly stunned. Especially when he then added, "Not only are you ugly, you're also fat."

I was 5'6" and I weighed about 135. Fat? I might've been 18 but even I knew that was utter bullshit. So I just steamed, seriously pissed off after trying so hard to be nice and let him down easy but explicitly... grrrrr. He pulled up to my parents house, and I got out of the car and then thought twice. I told him, "You say I'm fat, and you say I'm ugly. But at least I'm not old."

And then I slammed the car door and walked into my parent's house with my head high. Reject this, baby.

Yah!

Edited at 2008-04-22 07:39 pm (UTC)

I have a small black pin with tiny white writing on that you need to get close to be able to read... it says:

"From here, I can kick you in the nuts."

I like it. Maybe a t-shirt too . . .

Di

Oh the possibilities... I made tee's for Mark Henry. I really have no fear of iron-ons...

I figured I could always fall back on just wearing the black tshirt that says, in rather small letters right across the front, "come closer so I can slap you."

OOooo... that's a good one too!

"He was silent, then he said, "what, you think I wanted more? Have you looked in a mirror recently?" I was utterly stunned. Especially when he then added, "Not only are you ugly, you're also fat."

I was 5'6" and I weighed about 135. Fat? I might've been 18 but even I knew that was utter bullshit. So I just steamed, seriously pissed off after trying so hard to be nice and let him down easy but explicitly... grrrrr. He pulled up to my parents house, and I got out of the car and then thought twice. I told him, "You say I'm fat, and you say I'm ugly. But at least I'm not old."

And then I slammed the car door and walked into my parent's house with my head high. Reject this, baby."

Oh, well PLAYED. Sitting here with a proud grin on my face. Glad to know you.

Actually, this brings to mind a moment from RT this weekend while watching all the lovely mantitty floating past... we decided the men needed signs: "For Display Purposes Only"

Heeheehee...

I pity the men at RT to be honest. Poor things. You're right about the signage.

Di

Next year I'll make them mantitty bras and put that across the front...

Little medallions? Or they could say, if you can read this, your drool is getting on my chest. Step off. Maybe hand out some santizing wetwipes so they don't get too many germs?

One of my good friends from the Renaissance faire has a button that says "What color are my eyes?"

*grin*

Nice. Now THAT would make a good shirt!! I think I may have to make one of those!!

I'm all about cleanliness...

What the hell? Just... what the hell?

I'm a guy. I like boobs. I like touching boobs. But this is a bad, bad idea. The opportunities for such a thing to be abused are uncountable. Personally? Even if a girl came up to me and said "you can touch my boobs", I would likely say "thanks, they're very nice, but that's okay. I'll pass."

Granted, I'm married, which is 99% of the reason. But for the other 1%, I would feel disrespectful REGARDLESS of whether she said it was okay or not. That's the way my momma raised me. If you want a beautiful, mutual, consenting grope-fest, do it at your house.

Sorry if that was a little garbled. When I'm pissed off, my brain tends to run faster than my fingers.

Heh Thanks Di. I posted on this one here http://thewylddream.livejournal.com/180723.html